Seconded. Something that varies at DAO level and at Guild level. Could we name them differently to distinguish? bCoordinape and gCoordinape
Iâll add to that there are currently 15 people with Level 2 but not Level 1.
6 Likes
Great debate happening here. Hats off to Links for firing this up.
Iâm going to take a very simplistic view and say that this will make a near & clear incentive to climb the ranks to L2⌠that alone is reason to support this proposal.
Nothing is perfect here in the bDAO, frens, and so itâs the trajectory that matters. This proposal puts us on the right trajectory.
5 Likes
Like this thought. Perhaps something like a distribution multiplier from 0-1. If 100% of GIVE is distributed, then the multiplier is 1, if 0 are allocated, then multiplier down to 0.
This would also give the member the option of allocating towards what effort they felt they personally put towards the DAO this season. i.e. if you were 100% all-in, then you allocate and get all, but if you were only full steam ahead for 1 of the three months, then maybe you hold back 2/3 of your GIVS to get a .33 multiplier on the GIVS you receive.
Looking back, this doesnât seem to fit the bill of making this less complicated 
As a first time contributor/coordinaper, my biggest confusion was, as Links stated, the multiple circles. When I saw I couldnât allocate to some in my L1 circle (not accepting), I did not realize this meant I should jump circles to find where to allocate to them.
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My take by being a guest pass and earning bank either by coordinape or bounties boosts confidence in the DAO space more like internship i would call it; it depends with the culture and the team mates you cultivate along the way if you find a good/helpful network of friends/peers your confidence contributing in the ecosystem gets a wild boost with no time you find yourself an L1. At this stage with your creative brain juices your goals become bigger with a good team you start exploring projects and start writing proposals in this process guys recognize your input and you find yourself nominated as an L2; At this level with one or two seasons you already are an experienced DAOist or maybe you have bootstrapped a project from zero and you are totally immersed. My 2 Banks coordinape in regards to guest passers earning more bank than some L2s is a great motivation and have no problems with it, for L2s being stripped here comes the issue most of this L2s have spun up projects/subDAOs eg DAOpunks, Piedao, forefront, oxpolygon, degen etc most of them donât have as many hours to contribute as initially but they serve the bDAO ecosystem either as mentors/Advisory role so it would be pretty unfair to strip them of L2 status
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Thank you @links for bringing this up and for your clear and concise post.
I agree with most of what youâre suggesting regarding bDAOâs use of Coordinape. I hear the concerns that L2s are most likely to hold roles and see remuneration for their efforts that way. Iâd argue, however, that for a comparable allocation between an L2 and a GP for a given Coordinape round, the L2 will likely have put in more time/effort than the GP (though this isnât going to be true 100% of the time). Iâd also echo what others have expressed in that Coordinape is meant to compensate for contribution outside what is defined for a given role.
I also fully agree with the sentiments around the requirement of allocating GIVE in order to receive GIVE.
If Coordinape is meant to reward and incentivize contribution, focusing on yield across levels may not help us find a solution. Each group represents an entirely different demographic within bDAO, and though I agree that it seems strange the top GP and L1 contributors received twice that of the top L2, it may be an indication of a problem but not the problem itself.
A few folks have indicated in their comments already that Coordinape can be largely a game of visibility. Sometimes itâs called a popularity contest. If I focus my efforts on highly-visible contributions, across a number of guilds or initiatives within bDAO, Iâm likely to earn disproportionately more than my counterpart who spends as much or more time focused on lower visibility, in-depth contribution. In my opinion this issue is of equal or greater importance than the issues raised in the original post.
I see this as a start to the evolution of how bDAO uses Coordinape. Though Iâm not 100% sold on the current level structure, scaling rewards will incentivize progression from GP through L2 - if thatâs what we want. Will it promote quality contribution or contribution for the sake of levelling up? Iâm not sure.
In addition to your suggested scaling of rewards across levels, Iâm wondering if we can use some mathemagic to normalize for the issue of breadth and depth of contribution that I mentioned above.
2 Likes
I donât know but doesnât this take away the possibility of more guest passers to progress to the more levels ? I mean looking at it in my own perspective, L2s donât really need the gives as much as guest passers do and this can be justified by some of the work rate of the guest passers. Not all of them but some are really hardworking and this can actually take away that reward for the contribution.
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this is only a problem because there is no Formalized Education for the Tool. A lack of education problem.
again fundamentally a lack of education problem. the Role Holders in the Guilds and the Dao coordinape barely understand how to use it appropriately. This is exemplified by the observation that very few people write in the description of the contributions that they made in the space clearly provided when you first enter an active circle.
2 out of 3 premises are now irrelevant for most of your arguements
no kidding, it isnât supposed to, that is the design of the tokenomics of the bank token and the incentives to hold bank. The member ship level has been considered a flawed system and there has been discussions since the day I joined of creating a more appropriate membership system and incentives that would encourage this.
Use pirate math to weight the rewards towards higher-level contributors.
I donât think you can make the case that level 2 are higher level contributors. They are already compensated you can say that, and guest passers generally arenât, except by coordinape. SO maybe L2s since they are already compensated should get less than the guess passer pool since there are almost twice as many guest passers. Just brainstorming here
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Iâm not liking the tone here.
The member ship level has been considered a flawed system and there has been discussions since the day I joined of creating a more appropriate membership system and incentives that would encourage this.
- You are invalidating the effort people are doing here in bDAO by saying this. We are doing the best that we can, and i think we should acknowledge that. If it is such a flawed system, would you propose a better one? What does an appropriate membership look like to you?
maybe L2s since they are already compensated should get less than the guess passer pool since there are almost twice as many guest passers. Just brainstorming here
- Give me a proper data for that. Not all L2s get a 10hr/week role. Projects, roles and circumstances change, doesnât mean youâre contributing more than 10hr/week now that its going to be the same for the next month or season. Personally, Iâve been fucked over with what happened in DEGEN. From a 15hr/week role down to zero in a blink. If I havenât volunteered as a Talent Coordinator in Dev Guild, I would have zero income by now as Iâve committed myself in DAOing full-time. The coordinape helps a lot in feeling appreciated here as an L2.
This proposal is an example of why i am generally against the GSE program. Instead of taking their time to educate folks on a DAO tools they just get carried away proposing solutions for other folks to do.
- And maybe youâre right. Though fighting takes more of an effort than just bringing your ideas to life. If you think education is the biggest solution for all of this, why donât you champion a project and execute it? Or maybe you already do that Iâm not aware of. In that case, maybe we have to spread the word more of the Education Tools that you have.
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I think thereâs a better way to address a drop in engagement where L2s are concerned, or at least a better way to incentive continued contribution. What that may be, Iâm not entirely sure, though I do see that youâve sparked a great conversation around it! It may be worthwhile exploring some of the ideas presented here in the commentary.
One thing seems apparent: most of us agree that the way we utilize Coordinape needs to change, and as I mentioned above, Iâm generally in favor of most of the changes commended.
Thank you for putting this together and for your willingness to grapple with these issues.
2 Likes
@links One questions regarding only having 1 circle. Guest passes would still be opted out from giving? If not how would we prevent sybil attacks?
Thanks to everyoneâs comments and feedback! I really appreciate your thoughts and will use them to make this proposal stronger. It would be exhausting to answer them individually, so here are some general answers:
I will definitely will remove any reference to stripping L2 status from the next draft of this post. Hopefully the DAO will handle that as part of another proposal.
For sybil attacks - the intent was for Guest Passes not to be able to GIVE (as is the case now), so I will make that more clear in the next draft.
I hadnât considered the fact that there is low participation in GIVE allocation (Ops Guild shows ~65% participation) AND the fact that by not participating, the members are effectively creating a bigger slice for themselves. Iâm going to add participation requirements to the next draft of this proposal.
Surely the fact that coordinape needs education to use shows that it could be simplified? Itâs not âoff-the-shelfâ coordinape weâre talking about, itâs significantly MORE difficult to use than any other DAO at which I have contributed (including coordinape itself!) I personally donât feel that the complexity adds much benefit, which is the main reason I wrote this post. Would those who are in favour of keeping the 3-circle system consider telling me what benefit it adds vs a 1-circle system?
For the argument that L2âs have other income streams and that roles are mainly given to L2âs - I havenât seen any data that shows this. Anecdotally, I have seen many, MANY Guest Passes hold vital roles (the last 2 Ops Guild coordinators were guest passes), and use those roles to gain community trust and BANK, allowing them to elevate to L2. So I ask this question: is it true that L2âs are more likely to gain roles OR is it that roles help create L2âs? If someone wants to do an analysis on that, Iâd love to see it!
In general - whatâs wrong with L2âs having higher incomes? L2 denotes that the person has created a level of trust in the community (i.e. they have put time and effort into learning how to contribute at BanklessDAO), it makes sense to me that they would have higher remuneration than someone who just stumbled into BanklessDAO yesterday. L2âs are trusted contributors, and that trust has value to the DAO. They better understand the DAO, how it works, are more aligned through earned BANK, and relationships and may be better equipped to handle uncompensated tasks such as governance, onboarding, etc.
To be clear, I have no issue with Guest Passes earning more than L2âs, but I DO have an issue with Guest Passes refusing elevation to L2 (presumably) because the economic incentives are better as Guest Pass. Thatâs a big red flag, IMO. @ernest_of_gaia , as someone who has refused L2 elevation, can you tell use why you did that? Maybe my assumptions are wrong?
On the difficulty for Guest Passes to acquire 35K BANK to get to L1, personally I feel that itâs better for the DAO if these almost-members were to seek out roles and bounties, or write forum proposals and kick off projects to achieve L1 status rather than rely on coordinape. I understand thatâs no easy task, but many people (including myself) have done it that way, AND it creates an impetus to self-sovereign action in these levels. This is exactly the culture we should be promoting here, IMO.
On the question of âwhat is coordinapeâs purpose?â thereâs no clear answer I have found beyond âitâs meant to encourage contributionâ. You could argue that itâs to compensate for uncompensated contribution or that itâs meant to help Guest Passes get to L1, but since everyone allocates their GIVE based on their own feeling, your argument is probably unproveable. TBH I feel itâs best to just let people allocate GIVE how they want and not worry too much about directing the flow at this time. Thatâs decentralization.
For the problem of âmore visible contribution yields higher compensationâ, I think that if you are âcontributingâ and literally no one notices what youâre doingâŚthen maybe you arenât contributing as much as you think you are. There are certain roles (likes Ops and Treasury and infosec) where less visibility actually means success, but we should be paying these contributor as roles, anyways, so hopefully that doesnât affect coordinape too much.
For references to other alignment systems such as BANK locking, holding, etc - I look forward to reading your proposal on this! I seriously think mechanisms like that could help the DAO but am unable to pursue them myself.
For people who, for some reason, think I am part of the GSE program - I am not, not have I spoken to any GSEs about this post before I posted it. Unsure why that makes a difference, but here we are. I HAVE, on the other hand, consulted the coordinape workstream in the ops guild before I posted this, and incorporated their feedbackâŚsooo maybe your criticism is a bit unjustified?
Anyways, thanks to one and all, and I will make improvements to this and post again! I truly appreciate everyoneâs point of view.
11 Likes
@ernest_of_gaia @McEal
Your arguments of the BanklessDAO level system being flawed is exactly why @links devoted so much time into this proposal => we need to solve that problem.
Instead of having people sell any BANK they receive we need to incentivize people to become L1 and ultimately L2.
4 Likes
I would like to sugest/propose that we will have the rewards from coordinape âlockedâ for min. 3 months to stop people selling bank after they receive the rewards.
Last time I check on Sobol.io we had about 145 L2s ; between 650-700 L1s and somewhere between 1000-1100 guest pass.
@RunTheJewelz : itâs poasible to get the same statistics for L1s and Guess Pass (like you showed for L2s?)
Then we can paint a picture how we can also attract (active) people to join the coordinape. Maybe we need more time for sign-ups and allocation period?
Thank you!
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That I feel should be solved if thereâs kind of an incentive to becoming L1 and L2 respectively, taking away the ability of Guestpasser to recieve more banks wonât solve it.
Plus, when rewarding guest passers, everyone should know who contributed well enough and who didnât, the probability of someone who put in that much effort during the season to sell his/her BANK is very much low.
1 Like